What's goin on with upwork clients ???

[hich_testone]

Dear all,

I am on upwork since 2013, and today things are really really weird with clients on upwork, many scammers and less serious clients, why upwork doesn't invest in ads rather than useless AI chat, I say useless AI chat because clients and real developers  don't apreciate it, upwork increased membership plus fees without a significant gain.

In the last 7 months I invest arround $150 in connects and membership plus to gain $63 ($70 -10%)

Also after 46 jobs in 11 years and more than 3000 hours, I have no badge due to "incativity", it's ok, but is it fair ? don't I deserve a "trust badge" ie ?

I don't really care about badges, the main problem is CLIENTS, upwork must invest in ads and find solutions to bring us better clients, investing in AI is useless, because upwork is a commercial platform and not an IT research company.

I really apreciate upwork, I met with people from different countries and cultures, I enjoyed working with them, and made them really happy with my work done with much love and care, I was really happy, and wish to continue this way, but how ?!! 🤔🤔🙄🙄

I don't know, may be we need more communications with upwork.

Thank you for reading

Regards

[sein_mac]

Hi Mohamed,

I agree, you make great points. Also I've seen job posts plumit, not to mention quality. And I'm frequently seeing posts that obviously shouldn't be allowed.

[hich_testone]

Hi Sein and thank you for your reply and support.

I guess you have same questions with me :
Does upwork know about that ?

Do upwork stuff read our posts here ?

Is it useful to share this here ?

Regards

[sein_mac]

Hi Mohamed.

Thank you, its nice to speak you, and other users about their experience on the platform to help get a clearer picture of what's happening in the market.

Does upwork know about that ?

I believe so.

Do upwork stuff read our posts here ?

Yes but how much I'm not sure. We see offical Upwork mods responsed to some posts.

Is it useful to share this here ?

I believe so, the various insights can help alot in getting a wider understanding.

Today I looked up Upworks stock quote history and that was very revealing, especially when comparing different time frames. 

Hoping things pan out better for you in future.

[tjmisny]

I have noticed a similar downward spiral with Upwork and here are my explanations (I am an Expert Vetted Freelancer with nearly $400k earnings and a Client who has hired around $50k worth of talent)

* Quality clients are leaving the platform because the selection of candidates is challenging and obnoxious.  Upwork suggests numerous "Best Maches" who vary from qualified to extremely unqualified candidates... 4 people of varying quality take up Boosted space at the top of the page of candidates, majority of freelancers have some kind of badge, even ones who doesn't seem all that special, and Upwork hides some quality candites in the "Other Proposals" section.  Upwork has made it extra challenging to find the quality candidates.  

* Clients can often not justify the platform fees + sales tax, when they can hire a freelancer from their existing network without paying sales tax and a 5% platform fee.

* Clients are turned off by the sheer volume of freelancers who send copy/paste applications and can barely speak the language of the posting

Upwork needs to remove the barriers between quality freelancers and quality clients or more of each will leave the platform.  

[hich_testone]

Hi Thomas and thank you for your great reply.

Do you mean that upwork is ordering candidates according to different creteria and not by proposal time ?

In other words, I can be the 1rst bider (without boost) and appear in "Other proposals" section which is rarely seen by clients ?

Regards

[tjmisny]

Hi Mohamed - The order is definitley NOT ranked by proposal time.  Upwork refuses to share how their algorithm ranks proposals in a client's feed.  But many reports from both Freelancers and Clients show that qualified candidates CAN end up in the Other Proposals section.  There was even a report of a Boosted Proposal showing up in the Other Proposal section, which was circulated around last month.  

As an Upwork client myself, I can say that the way the algorithm sorts and organizes clients is completely f**ked up.  Candidates with no JSS and no completed jobs are often ranked higher than credible candidates who have successfully compelted simlar jobs, both are labeled "Best Match".  It's a total mess.  

[hich_testone]

Hi Thomas,

Thank you very much, now make sense why 99% of my proposals are not viewed and this is really unfair 🙄

As I pay to submit my proposal, I have the right at least to know my ranking list, then decide to invest or save my connects for a better match job, but to make upwork think about that.

As you are an upwork client, think of me if you have any php/js (or based techs) challenges, will give you a 60% discount 😀

Regards

[tjmisny]

I agree that it is totally unfair.  It is like playing a slot machine in a Casino.

I only hire video/film people, but thanks for letting me know!  

[sein_mac]

Hi Thomas,

Wow, that's very insightful and as you rightly point out pretty not-on.  I feel there's not nearly enough moderation (visable or not) in the job posting section, but perhaps it is slowly starting to change if the last last few weeks are anything to go off - it has to change if the platform is to stay a float.

I'm even starting to notice a lower rate of application to jobs - not good signs at all.

I saw another freelacner piont out that other sites manage to moderate without much hassle. It feels like a bit of a hands off approach from Upwork on the job posting front - I wish they'd employe people to be more active on that front - its a sensable investment.  And if this is the approach at the front door where cash flow is entering the market I am unforntuantely not surprized about the bogus approach to recommending talent, though there's probably a bottom line reason for Upwork to take it's approach.

Their projections on market change must be a factor.

[hydra2016]

That explains a lot, i was wondering last week suddently i got 5 answers to 5 proposals!! the last 2 months I did not even get views on my boosted proposals....

[miriam-ocampo]

I think it would depend on how they do financially with the changes. If they make a profit then they would not care about the quality of the clients or the scammers or the fact that we are not making any money. 

[the3dguru]

Upwork is free to sabotage the enormous advantage its built up chasing short term profit from selling their whatever tokens to connect unskilled people to poorly paying clients. It's a commercial company that wants to turn a profit and thats how its choosing to do it.

Obviously, thats no use to people with valuable skills and good clients. So the real issue this raises is what site should decent clients use to find skilled people?

[imagecreator]

I think there are several things going on right now. Attached are 2 random examples that upwork has at least a weird system of asking connects for the jobs. Same jobs....but one is asking 12, another 16...  Clients are fewer and fewer, I don't get  as many answers as I did before from cliente...Now...either someone is bidding really low, either jobs...may bot be real. And connects cost a lot...if you understand what I mean. I have like 100 proposals active...only 20 were viewed... I can understand that some jobs may not be viewed because the client is looking only for lower offers,but even so....1 out of 5 were viewed only? And can somoene explain why for the same job, why upwork is asking diferent amount of connects?

[sein_mac]

Hi Lazar,

why upwork is asking diferent amount of connects?

This one is puzzling and I'h seen that exact thing a few times in the last month or so.

I've also noticed silimar things recently with job posts. From duplicate posts with at at least 12 identical posts and 0 hires except 1 (that I can see), job posts that are unethical, potential health hazards, and budgets way under the level needed given the scope of the request.  All of these things could be considered to be potentially against the TOS, depending on the interapation.

I'h interacted with an Upwork mod here about repeated spam posts and the response was essentially they are dealing with a higher level of spam and fake posts.

I think the bottom line is Upwork appears not to be investing enough resources in maintaining and cultivating a healthy and sustatinable platform.  It feels like Upwork has a hands off approach to moderating job posting, or at least at a level that would help the market grow.

[sein_mac]

.

[9ae811bc]

Thank you for sharing your perspective. It's true that financial considerations often play a significant role in how platforms like Upwork operate and the decisions they make. However, it's essential to remember that maintaining a balance between profitability and providing a fair and conducive environment for freelancers is crucial for the long-term sustainability of the platform.

While profitability is undoubtedly a priority for any business, neglecting the concerns of freelancers regarding client quality and issues like scams can ultimately impact the platform's reputation and its ability to attract and retain talented freelancers. Therefore, it's in the best interest of all parties involved, including Upwork, to address these concerns and strive for a mutually beneficial ecosystem.

[hich_testone]

The problem is that competition is not fair, when I submit a proposal, I bid the whole amount of connects, I keep concentrated to write a good cover letter, and I definitely don't want to go to the "other proposal" tab which is not seen by clients, because when clients have a "best match" tab visible in front of them, "other proposal" tab is like a trash, and it's a waste of time, energy and connects.

We need to have clear idea about job competition because proposals and bid range are not enough, also upwork must keep proposals ranked by time, because when upwork rearranges proposals, it affects the competition, which is unfair, and that will kill candidates of many freelancers, even if the client needs assistance to choose the right freelancer, he must pay a human talent recruter, we need to have equal chances to catch jobs, and that will happen only if upwork rank proposals by time (and the 4 boosted candidates).

And let me say something about upwork algo, I worked on about 20 symfony projects on upwork, symfony and symfony 4 are added in my skills list, and my "best match" tabs contains no symfony project, on the other hand, the word laravel doesn't exist in my profile but my "best match" tabs shows me laravel projects, if the same algo is arranging proposals for clients, I can understand why I get 1 view out of 6 proposals and no hire.

[yofazza]

Apart from ours, there are clients and Upwork's point of view. Try to look from Upwork's. They want to make money which they never be able to for years, until the 'changes' recently. So, what's fair for freelancers is the least of their concerns.

[hich_testone]

Ok, I understand, but we need fair competition

I guess that upwork is sheeting, we need to know how upwork's managing the selection of candidate.

But here we are talking to ourselves, no upwork moderator is advising us

[tjmisny]

Well said, Mohamed.

If I had to zero in on the biggest problem with Upwork, it is the point you raised - quality candidates are getting put in the "Other Proposals" category and low-skill/low-experience level candidates are being labeled "Best Match".  I am confident that if this stupid f**cking design choice was fixed, more clients would actually hire.  

[celgins]

...upwork must keep proposals ranked by time, because when upwork rearranges proposals, it affects the competition, which is unfair...

...we need to have equal chances to catch jobs, and that will happen only if upwork rank proposals by time (and the 4 boosted candidates).

Upwork doesn't need a high-powered machine learning algorithm to place proposals in chronological order; a simple SQL statement can do that. The algorithm’s job is to introduce reasoning and determine why a proposal should be ranked lower or higher based on a variety of factors.

If proposals were ranked by time of receipt, many legitimate proposals from skilled freelancers would never be seen. Auto-submitters (bots) often send proposals within seconds of a job being posted while legitimate freelancers might not apply to the job for hours.

[tjmisny]

Agreed, Clark - ranking by time would incentivize spam applications and it would be a terrible idea.

What should the algorithm use as criteria for rankings?  It should be a mix of skill (JSS, earnings, high value 5-star projects) and whether the bid fits the client's desired range, with an emphasis being put on skill.  However the current system favors who the cheapest candidates are and is less concerned about matching quality freelancers with the clients.  It's a total mess.  

[celgins]

It is a mess. The criteria being used is a mix because the algorithm constantly analyzes an enormous amount of data and information (i.e., freelancer skills, client job descriptions, historical data, payment data) and other things Upwork will never reveal.

I believe one of the biggest challenges for this type of algorithm is how it analyzes and considers the profiles (i.e., skills, experience, background, etc.) of freelancers with no JSS, no earnings, no work history, and no reviews. There are a lot of experts who match extremely well with jobs but might not get the "best match" label if the algorithm only considers Upwork success criteria.

[tjmisny]

Clark - why should the algorithm be skewed to freelancers with no JSS, no earnings, no work history and no reviews?  Even if one of these people is an expert (which rarely is the case)... why should the platform's algorithm risk putting vetted and qualified freelancers who have historically added value to the platform aside (Or even in the garbage of Other Proposals!) in favor of someone who is untested and unproven?  

If the response is - well how are new freelancers supposed to be given a chance to complete?  They can bring existing clients to the platform and build a JSS/track record of reviews/testimonials... and if a freelancer can't do that, well then they clearly aren't capable of being considered an expert.  (By the way, this is what I did to get started here).  

[hich_testone]

Hi Thomas,

I really agree with you, but we paid same connects amount, it's unfair to rank me like upwork wants, I made huge efforts to write my cover, no AI used except to correct grammar, and you know the stress to gather a cover letter, I don't do that to be under mercy of upwork algo, I need a clear idea on competition so I can decide whether to bid or not.

We need more transparency and upwork must invest in ads to bring clients to the platforme, not AI chat

BTW, ain't no way for me to return to old membership plus fees ? I don't need your AI chat, it's ashame to use AI here, and it's unrespectfull for clients.

[tjmisny]

Agreed on the AI tools being totally useless, and the Plus benefits used to be way better. Also agree that more transparency with algorithm is much needed!

[celgins]

I didn't say it should be skewed; I'm saying the algorithm must consider those profiles because they exist, and the algorithm's objective is to seek best matches. The vetting and qualified freelancers you speak of are "Upwork" vetted and qualified; it doesn't mean another freelancer without those Upwork credentials is less skilled or qualified, or a best match for a particular job.

What you did to get started is probably rare. Most expert freelancers--myself included--show up with no Upwork work history, but extensive subject matter expertise outside of Upwork. Further, I don't believe most freelancers come to Upwork and bring clients with them. I'm not even sure why I would do that--I have no intention of giving fees to Upwork. If I meet a client through Upwork, no problem--Upwork gets its fees. But I would never bring a client here when I can work with them offline and avoid shedding 10% in fees.

[253c5f2c]

I agree! I have 40 days here in Upwork but 20 years experience outside. My earnings are still zero... I have no job score, but, I will not bring a client from outside. I have my work relationship with them in another space.

Thankfully I got my first job 7 days ago, which I already delivered and I am really glad with. The client called me again. But it is really weird how things are here. The majority of the jobs I applied for the client never went back to see. They posted and they gone. 

Several jobs offering $5 per hour. Other, offering $10 fixed price. It is a joke.

Many jobs are employment advertisement.

The majority of posts are Copy/Paste job for beginners. Skills required for it: structural engineering, AutoCad, 3D rendering... really? 

[fdaa1c92]

The sheer number of fraudulent job posts alone is overwhelming, Aslo you'd notice a high rate of ghost employers that post a job and never come online again or worse, they set an interview then never come online again. I'm no detective but it seems suspicious on upwork's end as a means to collect connects for basically nothing. In a week, I ran a test by applying for 10 jobs and boosted all to number one....Not even a single view.   Upwork has to take the client issue more seriously, Because right now they seem like bots.

[tjmisny]

I've been using Upwork for a little over 3 years... so far this year several clients have requested interviews and then disappeared!  This has rarely happened before this year.  Even worse, these clients then refuse to cancel the projects.  It really does seem like Upwork is posting fake jobs to collect connects money, even sporadically inviting freelancers to help legimitize the scam.  I have no smoking gun evidence, but it really does seem like this is what's happening.  

[253c5f2c]

Yes! I agree. I have this kind of thought about upwork posting fake jobs to collect connects!

I think you are the one that saw my screenshot about a message I received 3 times, supposedly from Upwork...

I flagged a Job Post that was literally a Copy/Paste from a job posted 5 hours before. 16 connects to apply. At the time I saw it, about 15 people had applied. I flagged that 3 times. Today, the job was cancelled, thankfully.

[hydra2016]

Same here, lucky I still have a couple of repeat clients, but lost badge due to inactivity then spent a fortune on connects for jobs that never hire anyone. Plus all the other clients that asked for free call before hiring anyone and finally never hire either. 

[hich_testone]

Jobs never hire anyone, and we're being charged our bids, this way we are only loosing our connects, we need refund for unhired projects, to invest connects on other projects, I understand this is due to some freelancers whom taking sheeting, but this will ruin us, upwork must find better stategy to discuss and remove unhonnest freelancers, it's easy, we just need to work on it.

[253c5f2c]

I had that as well. You apply for jobs and the client never comes back...

[alex-nemchyn]

You know what the difference is. Between mammoths and freelancers. Mammoths are extinct, but every day there is a new freelancer .....

[bestcoverdesigns]

What a client :$  
1% out of 350 job posted ended with a HIRE.
That's the answer.

[tjmisny]

How has Upwork not banned or block this person?  They are obviously hiring people in violation of the TOS, right?  Why would they post 300+ jobs without hiring, and keep posting jobs? 

[253c5f2c]

No comments! Thank you for sharing that. I am new to Upwork and I am come to realise what weird environment!

[2297e2bc]

Upworks needs a ful  revamt and get professional!

This is like some 6th grade game at school. I too have had only a 1 of 100 propopsal hire rate and am wasting MY MONEy targeting phoney and non professional "clients", if they are even real.

I agree withyou  100% - at lest that is a good odd!