Solved: Freelancers Asking for Hourly After Accepting...

60581125 · ‎06-24-2022

This situation has been recurring in all my work posts with a fixed budget!
Rounding off, if I end up with 50 proposals:

- 40% of them (20) are proposals above the proposed value (I thank them and decline);

- Of the remaining 30, 60% of them (18) do not have the core competencies, are very new to the platform (no metrics), or the profile portfolio and submitted examples are simply not good;

- Of the remaining 12, who are practically the shortlisted ones, I send some questions to start selecting the main candidate and, 83.3% of them (10), ignores my questions and just respond ASKING TO CHANGE FROM FIXED TO HOURLY, even after:

= Have seen the job listed WITH A FIXED VALUE

= Have READ the description

= AGREED to the fixed budget

= Clicked on SEND PROPOSAL

= INSERT THE SAME PROPOSED VALUE

= And SUBMITTED to be selected

- The 2 left on the list, unfortunately, are usually the least pleasing in the general factors...

...so I have to invite and select all over again.

That is getting very annoying, Upwork!

prestonhunter · ‎06-27-2022

re: "Your advice is extremely flawed."

On the contrary: One of the biggest client mistakes we read about here in the Forum is hiring only one freelancer to work on a complex project.

This is especially evident with large app/website/web application development projects.

Clients who end up spending thousands of dollars on such projects only to be disappointed by the results of feel that they have nothing to show for it invariably would have been better off had they hired multiple freelancers and been able to compare the work done by them.

My standard advice is to start out by hiring 4 to 6 developers for such projects. Then clients should continue working with the one or ones that provide them with the best value.

The client may end up continuing to work with all freelancers hired, assigning them to work on different tasks that support the whole project. Or the client may end up continuing with only one or two. But without hiring multiple freelancers for a project, it is impossible to compare the work. The larger a project is, the more money the client will save by hiring multiple freelancers, comparing their work, and continuing to work only with the freelancer(s) who provide the best value for the project.

Don't fixate on my specific example of hiring 10 freelancers to create a single illustration. It is certainly not necessary to hire more than one freelancer to create a single illustration. A client should be able to review the portfolios of various applicants and pick one artist to work with.

Why would a client hire more than one artist to create an illustration?
- In order to have more than one option to look at

- Because the client wants to have more than one version of the illustration for a project

- Because the client wants to receive usable work by a very tight deadline, so it makes sense to hire multiple freelancers to "hedge his bets" in case some freelancers fail to deliver

These are all standard, effective hiring techniques. But not all of these techniques are appropriate for every project.

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prestonhunter · ‎06-24-2022

Andre:
I understand that you are frustrated by this turn of events.

But if I'm being honest, I feel like you are putting concerns about these freelancers ahead of your own needs.

If you really want to put YOUR needs and the needs of your project first, you may get better results if you simply hire these freelancers using the contract model they prefer.

I believe that there are some QUALITY freelancers you are missing out on hiring because they are asking you to use an hourly contract. And the reason they are asking you to use an hourly contract is because the nature of your job makes it better suited to being done using an hourly contract.

If you hire SIX FREELANCERS using a hourly contract, then within an hour or two of them working on this project, you will be able to identify ONE OF THEM who provides you with the best value, and you can then fire all the rest.

60581125 · ‎06-27-2022

Point taken and... I never knew I could do what you mentioned in the last sentence. I'll have to review my concepts about hourly contracts. Thanks!

jeremiah-brown · ‎06-28-2022

Hire them though and pay for their work, don't ask for free samples.

60581125 · ‎08-10-2022

I would never ask for free.

60581125 · ‎08-10-2022

Preston H wrote:
If you hire SIX FREELANCERS using a hourly contract, then within an hour or two of them working on this project, you will be able to identify ONE OF THEM who provides you with the best value, and you can then fire all the rest.

It took me a few weeks - and reading some of your forum responses - to understand this suggestion.

Maybe because fixed-price contracts are extremely obvious and the most common type among freelancing platforms, and because Upwork was the first one I used offering the hourly format, but mainly because there is no onboarding tutorial on this method register and publish your first project.

I believe that there are many like me who, at first, avoid this format out of sheer ignorance of the existence of a specific technological structure to control the time spent and the amount to be charged, in a transparent, safe way and the possibilities of tests, project and team arrangements that this can provide.

Thank you very much, Preston! - you should really create a sheatsheet and post it in a 'gig' offering your "Best Practices". I'd pay for that!!

jeremiah-brown · ‎08-10-2022

I won't accept fixed rate work anymore. It's abused soooooo much.

prestonhunter · ‎08-10-2022

re: "I won't accept fixed rate work anymore. It's abused soooooo much."

A wise policy, indeed.

I'm not personally offended if other freelancers like to accept fixed-price contracts.

If they can make it work for them, that's great.

But for me, it is very rare for me to accept a fixed-price contract.

It doesn't allow flexibility for the client.

I believe that with rare exceptions, hourly contracts work better for clients.

jeremiah-brown · ‎08-15-2022

I have decided to do the following for fixed price work -

If the job is fixed price, lets say $200, I ask for the contract to be written up as hourly with an equivalent hourly limit in place. In other words, if my rate is $50 hourly, and the fixed price is $200, I ask for an hourly contract limited to 4 hours.

This gives payment protection, the tracker protection to show work performed, and gives me a record of my bid vs work performed (to track margin metrics).

bobafett999 · ‎06-24-2022

Several reasons.

You may be new on platform and many freelancers do not trust new buyers with fixed price. They believe they might be cheated or the buyer may change goal post and ask for more than they had bid.

The project description might be vague and feel that with fixed proce they would end up working more.

The fixed price might be too low for the amount of work required.

Preston gave you good suggestions

60581125 · ‎06-27-2022

Understood. Thanks!

13ba69a7 · ‎06-25-2022

why don't you give work to new joiners

prestonhunter · ‎06-25-2022

re: "why don't you give work to new joiners"

This is a good suggestion.

An effective strategy for most any client is to hire a MIX of freelancers who are new to the platform AND experienced Upwork freelancers. That is what I do.

60581125 · ‎06-27-2022

My report is not time related.

I've been using freelance platforms for over a decade, but I'm 'new joiner' here at Upwork. And in all my 3 projects around here (so far) were performed by 'new joiner' freelancers.

renata101 · ‎06-27-2022

Andre C wrote:
I've been using freelance platforms for over a decade, but I'm 'new joiner' here at Upwork.

That's interesting. If you posted the same contract on any of the platforms you've used previously, what type of results would you expect to see?

60581125 · ‎08-10-2022

Most of the other platforms doesn't offer a hourly project format, so I'd expect to keep seing the same fixed budget negotiations.

matheszabi · ‎06-25-2022

I will try to present the freelancer side of the coin:

"Rounding off, if I end up with 50 proposals:"

That's great for you. I mark downvote "to many applicants": and I don't bid if over 50. Simple like that.

"- 40% of them (20) are proposals above the proposed value (I thank them and decline);"

I don't know what portion you have. The proposed value is a proposed value by you. My proposed value can be different even a lot higher, and when I see the client says it is a "minor work" or a "quick for who knows". Maybe I do really know it is not 3 weeks, but 6 months is the cost, what are you asking, why don't chat with me, what is in my head to clarify, for sure not needed, 6 months and for sure not needed, those of this which i recommend?

Usually I don't bid over the budget a lot, because it costs connects and I don't waste it on clients to make them understand what they want is technically nearly impossible or is hard and takes a lot of time.

"- Of the remaining 30, 60% of them (18) do not have the core competencies, are very new to the platform (no metrics), or the profile portfolio and submitted examples are simply not good;"

From where do you know???

Do you believe I will write everything in detail for 21 years of experience? Or the projects, which I was paid it is free at Github?

Why do clients make a nonsense conclusions?!

"- Of the remaining 12, who are practically the shortlisted ones, I send some questions to start selecting the main candidate and, 83.3% of them (10), ignores my questions and just respond ASKING TO CHANGE FROM FIXED TO HOURLY,"

- because they receive 10 connects, while they spend 2 to 6. This is a free way to make Connects...

Are you a God, who judges people from a public portfolio?

More exactly the color spectrum or the pictures from portfolio, because I am judged how colorful is my website and what colors are in my mobile developer services.

Try to understand usually we receive the design from client, who purchase from designers. So the colors, pictures are out of my coordination.

Or... are you an enterpreneur here and you sign a contract with another enterpreneur... with terms and conditions...

What if somebody has no portfolio, no review, but it will assume it will do the work assigned on time and budget?

-no, you don't need that, you need a colorful portfolio...

Keep judging based on portfolio and pump the Connects to freelancers!

For me, the lesson learned: need to make a lot more colorful portfolios...

"That is getting very annoying, Upwork!"

Fully agree!

Partially Upwork has his fault, because didn't allowed to be listed my consultation offer, because not enough colorfull.

jeremiah-brown · ‎06-27-2022

Simple answer - they're doing it because they want to secure the work THEN ask for hourly. This is most likely because they're afraid you'll move on to other candidates if they ask for an hourly contract. There are more freelancers than there are jobs so by the time they get an offer, they've probably had 20-30 rejections or closed jobs.

Personally, I try not to accept fixed-price contracts. There are two reasons for this:
1. Hourly contracts are protected with the Upwork time tracker (they also provide the client with some transparency)

2. Clients love to abuse fixed-rate contracts. I have been taken advantage of more than I care to admit by clients who seem to think they are entitled to an endless supply of labor while holding the freelancer hostage with their reviews.

Hope this makes sense.

kfarnell · ‎06-26-2022

Andre C wrote:
- Of the remaining 12, who are practically the shortlisted ones, I send some questions to start selecting the main candidate and, 83.3% of them (10), ignores my questions and just respond ASKING TO CHANGE FROM FIXED TO HOURLY, even after:
= Have seen the job listed WITH A FIXED VALUE
= Have READ the description
= AGREED to the fixed budget
= Clicked on SEND PROPOSAL
= INSERT THE SAME PROPOSED VALUE
= And SUBMITTED to be selected

Negotiations go in both directions. They likely ignore your questions at that stage because they only work on hourly projects, and if you're not willing to change to hourly, engaging in a dialogue would be a waste of time for both sides.

They have to propose a rate and using your suggestion acts as a placeholder until details have been clarified, and, potentially, a change to an hourly based project.

As you say you are inviting freelancers, the obvious thing to do would be to glance at their profiles and exclude those who exclusively do hourly based projects if you aren't willing to work that way.

bobafett999 · ‎06-26-2022

Another thing you may want to do is insert this in your proposal,"This is a FIXED price contract with non negotiable budget".

pgiambalvo · ‎06-26-2022

Many people are afraid of being scammed and not paid for fixed price contracts because the only way they are protected is by using the time tracker for hourly jobs.

60581125 · ‎06-27-2022

I empathize with this issue and see many freelancers complaining about clients with hundreds of jobs in their history, but not paying part/end of the contract.

However, I believe that it is a problem for the platform's policy to ensure that the payment is made to the professional (weak part in the situation: work before, receive later).

Just like Uber and other transportation platforms ask for everything from the basic 'driver license' to the controversial 'criminal records', the 'verified payment' badge should be considered a basic/mandatory item to register on the platform, not an additional/vanity item to make your profile more 'attractive' to service providers.

renata101 · ‎06-26-2022

Hi Andre,

Your post is fairly ambiguous because you don't state the type of jobs you post.

Question 1: How sure are you that the budget you've decided on is reasonable for the type and amount of work you're requesting along with the complexity of your project? Have you done any homework to determine realistic rates for freelancers with the experience levels you're seeking? Many clients haven't. Upwork isn't a vending machine where you determine what you want to pay for item X.

I work in an area where clients routinely underestimate the amount of work it takes to complete the average project by at least 50%. If I'm interested in the work, I will occasionally bid on a project with a low budget stating what I believe is a more realistic budget; clients can respond or not as they see fit. Freelancers often can't read your mind to understand if you've hired someone in their area before and whether your estimates are indeed realistic. They may simply be responding with a budget they think is realistic for someone with their specialization and experience.

prestonhunter · ‎06-27-2022

If a client is serious about getting some work done, just hire freelancers using hourly contracts if that is what they want. You pay ZERO DOLLARS up front when doing so. It is not risky.

You can fire someone at any time if you don't like their work.

True story: Last week I hired ten artists to create an illustration.

Five of them worked and completed the task. Five didn't get started. I closed all ten contracts. I paid zero dollars to the ones who did no work. My credit card was never charged anything. I did not need to argue or dispute or ask for a refund. You can't do that with fixed-price contracts.

If you are anxious: Hire someone. After 30 minutes of them working, pause the contract. Check their work. If you don't love it, fire them and hire someone else.

renata101 · ‎06-27-2022

Preston H wrote:
If a client is serious about getting some work done, just hire freelancers using hourly contracts if that is what they want. You pay ZERO DOLLARS up front when doing so. It is not risky.

You can fire someone at any time if you don't like their work.
True story: Last week I hired ten artists to create an illustration.
Five of them worked and completed the task. Five didn't get started. I closed all ten contracts. I paid zero dollars to the ones who did no work. My credit card was never charged anything. I did not need to argue or dispute or ask for a refund. You can't do that with fixed-price contracts.

If you are anxious: Hire someone. After 30 minutes of them working, pause the contract. Check their work. If you don't love it, fire them and hire someone else.

Preston,

I hope we're not going to see this recounted on YouTube because Fiverr already posts similar videos.

Personally, I would dump any client who paused the contract after 30 minutes to check on me, regardless of whether they liked my work or not. What you're professing is micromanagement at its worst.

prestonhunter · ‎06-27-2022

re: "Personally, I would dump any client who paused the contract after 30 minutes to check on me"

I don't blame you.

I agree.

I'm simply pointing out - for a client who is worried about using hourly contracts - that they don't need to be. Clients HAVE THE POWER to end an hourly contract at any time.

If a client feels that a freelancer's work is not what he is looking for, the client can end an hourly contract whenever he wants. After 30 days. Or 3 days. Or 30 minutes.

re: "What you're professing is micromanagement at its worst."

Yes, I agree.

But if YOU hired a 5 freelancers to work for you, and you looked at their work diaries, after 30 minutes, and you saw that one of them was playing computer games while the other ones were working on editing your manuscript, wouldn't you end the contract on the one who was playing games?

yitwail · ‎06-27-2022

Preston H wrote:

If you are anxious: Hire someone. After 30 minutes of them working, pause the contract. Check their work. If you don't love it, fire them and hire someone else.

This might work one time, but the freelancer is likely to leave a negative review mentioning the abrupt firing, and after several such reviews, it will probably be difficult hiring quality freelancers, so anyone considering this tactic should be aware that you're burning bridges, in case you ever need to hire at Upwork again, although I suppose you can delete your existing account then and create a new one to start with a clean slate as a client.

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce

prestonhunter · ‎06-27-2022

John: I'm not sure what you're getting at with your post.

If a client hires a freelancer, and that freelancer is not a good fit for the project, then the client should fire the freelancer. The sooner the better.

That's what I do.

I have hired 178 freelancers on Upwork, have a 4.96 out of 5 score from freelancer reviews, and have no trouble at all hiring freelancers.

feed_my_eyes · ‎06-27-2022

It IS risky if you want to work with anyone other than cheap freelancers. If you hire 10 freelancers with hourly rates of $50 or more, even if each freelancer only works for 1 hour - which wouldn't be enough time to evaluate their work, if a project is even remotely complex - then you'll have spent $500 without coming anywhere close to getting your project finished. Your advice is extremely flawed. Personally, if a client tried a stunt like that with me, they'd end up with nothing if they stopped the project early on - for the first hour, I would still be making notes/reviewing the materials and won't have actually produced ANY work - and I would leave them the most scathing review imaginable. It sounds like you only work with desperate, entry-level freelancers who have no self-respect.

pgiambalvo · ‎06-27-2022

Yep, pay me for any time I spend working on a project in any way or you get nothing from me, within reason, of course.

prestonhunter · ‎06-27-2022

re: "It sounds like you only work with desperate, entry-level freelancers who have no self-respect."

???

Is that addressed to me?

I'm not sure why you would think that. What you are saying is the opposite of the truth.

I have regularly shared the results of my Upwork hiring here in the Forum. Any Forum reader familiar with those posts is aware that I have a history of hiring high-quality, highly professional Upwork freelancers.

You are welcome to review my client statistics and the reviews that freelancers have given me.

I know a great deal about how the Upwork client-side tools work.

I have a great deal of experience hiring Upwork freelancers.

I have shared insight here in this thread and in many other threads created by clients.

I have provided some accurate, nuts-and-bolts information about ways that clients can hire and manage freelancers. Based on what I have said, you have concluded that the freelancers I hire are "desperate, entry-level freelancers who have no self-respect"?

feed_my_eyes · ‎06-27-2022

So the average pay for your projects is $18.45/hour - yes, that sounds like entry-level to me. And the screen capture doesn't show you cutting off anyone's work after half an hour and only proceeding with the best freelancer; on the contrary, you paid four freelancers over $500 for just one drawing. So why weren't you able to evaluate their work earlier? It doesn't look like such a great system to me. If it works for you, fantastic, but I don't think that you're providing good advice to the average Upwork client.

BTW, you can easily tell when someone is responding to you because it'll say "in response to" at the top of the message.

prestonhunter · ‎06-27-2022

re: "So why weren't you able to evaluate their work earlier?"

I am indeed able to evalute the work done by freelancers very early on.

This is one of the main points I emphasize when I advise clients how to use Upwork effectively:

Clients should evaluate a new freelancer's work early and quickly fire underperforming freelancers.

When I hire artists, I can view their work in the work diary, and I can quickly see if a freelancer's work is unprofessional or does not fit the project.

I hired 10 freelancers for this illustration.

When I reviewed their work diaries, I found that the work being done by the artists who actually did any work was compelling and I wanted to let them finish their versions of the illustration.

I ended up paying 5 freelancers for the complete task, and I paid 5 freelancers nothing.

re: "So the average pay for your projects is $18.45/hour - yes, that sounds like entry-level to me"

Then you are unaware of the type of work I have hired for and probably have little or no experience in these areas as a client.

re: "If it works for you, fantastic, but I don't think that you're providing good advice to the average Upwork client."

It does work well for me.

The advice I have provided in this thread and other threads is often about nuts-and-bolts mechanics of how the Upwork system physically works. It is accurate and useful. Such advice applies to all Upwork clients, even if they don't click particular buttons.

The more knowledge that an Upwork client has, the more power he has to achieve his goals.

Other advice, about techniques, is based on my own experience as a client. Such advice may not apply to every client. But it is still useful for clients to be aware of different hiring techniques. Many clients (for example) may not be aware of the useful technique of hiring multiple freelancers to work on the same task, so that they can compare the work and have more than one option to choose from.

You may not appreciate that as a freelancer in your particular niche and price range, but it is useful technique that every client will benefit knowing about, even if it doesn't apply to a particular project.

prestonhunter · ‎06-27-2022